Alhaji Ja’afaru Makarfi is the Chairman of the Kaduna State chapter of the apex Islamic body in northern Nigeria, Jama’atu Nasril Islam (JNI). In this interview with Saturday Sun, the octogenarian spoke on a wide range of national issues including the proposed national conference, corruption, security challenges and the 2015 general elections.Makarfi, who is also a one-time commissioner for education in Kaduna State and a delegate to the 2005 National Political Reform Conference, stated categorically that Nigeria does not require a national conference to address its challenges, but abolish the present presidential system of government, which he described as too expensive for the nation’s quest for development.
According to him, the national conference if allowed will leave Nigeria more disunited than it is, as delegates will bring forth their sectional agenda too numerous to be addressed. On the 2015 general election, the JNI Chairman said Nigerians don’t care about
where the nation’s president comes from, adding that what matters to a common man is his right and justice. He also said that only God can save the country ahead of the 2015 polls. He spoke more on this and other national issues with ABDULGAFAR ALABELEWE. Excerpts:
It is already 53 years after Nigeria’s independence, as an elder statesman, what is your assessment of our journey so far?
The major problem of Nigeria is corruption. Nigerians have become followers of the devil; where there is money, people will always go and look for it by all means, that is why it is difficult now to get things right, and as I am talking to you now, you also know that, nothing goes right in Nigeria; whatever you want, you have to bribe or you have to ask for favour. No matter how qualified you are, you don’t get any appointment, you don’t get any job unless you know somebody. That is not the way to do things. Even this politics we are doing now, people spend money to get votes, then everything is wrong in Nigeria. And to get it right, there is no amount of sovereign conference that will solve our problem. Do you know why? The moment you come for a meeting, then there must be diverse opinions. You know, we have more than 400 ethnic tribes in Nigeria; each tribe has its own ways of doing things, has its own culture and so, they will bring about old prejudices and things like that, and that is why I don’t support this sort of conference. It is going to disrupt the present stability we are enjoying right now. Despite all the inconsistencies, we are still enjoying something and that thing is that, every part of Nigeria is proud to belong to Nigeria. And we must maintain that, to make sure that we maintain unity to be one country. The moment you bring people of different groups together, everybody has his own likes and dislikes, his own taste, you will bring something which will disturb the present unity that we are enjoying.
Already, if you are in a state, some people will begin to say, we, we are minority, we are subjugated, we are discriminated, we are this, we are that, we want our own state. Even if you go to the local government, you will see people who will say, oh yes I belong to another tribe, and my people want our own local government, we cannot continue to live like that. If we continue to break up, that means we are weakening the unity of the country, and the moment you bring about this conference, all these problems will come up, and then you will start to regret, why did we call for this conference in the first place? Because you cannot reach any consensus on any issue in Nigeria now. So, we need to first try to maintain the status quo. Number two, you cannot right the wrongs of the present till you wipe out or reduce corruption drastically. Corruption is the bane of our development now: in every aspect of our lives, corruption has eaten deep to the extent that people don’t even know that there is God. We don’t follow the tenets of our religions of Islam and Christianity. All of us are guilty; we are all looking for worldly things and we are all aware of this. For example, I am a pensioner, I have areas of two years of pension not paid. What brought about this? Corruption. Look, if there is no corruption, nobody will care who is the President of Nigeria, nobody will care about who is the governor of a state or the chairman of that local government. If there is no corruption, if there is justice and fair play, everyone will get his own share of what is due to him, and there will be no problem. Apart from corruption, the system of government we are operating now needs to be addressed.
Which system?
The present system, the presidential system we are operating is too costly for the level of our development in this country. If we want to be realistic, we should wipe it off. If you go on record to see how much we are spending with the executive arm, legislature and judiciary, how much we are spending at all levels of our local government, you will find out that, by the time we finish paying all these organs, there will be very little left for any meaningful development. And when we continue to do that, we will never get development, when these people are taking away 90 to 95 per cent of our revenue. I was reading the other day in the paper that, because this minister of aviation has bought two armoured vehicles at N255 million, they said, the American President’s vehicle is only N47 million and that is a President, President of the biggest country in the world, the most economically developed country in the world, with all their resources, yet the President is riding just N47 million car, and now, a minister is to ride cars worth N255 million. And these ones are just for her safety, there are still official cars around, how can you have development? You cannot have development, because these people have eaten deep into our resources and there is nothing left. So, I will plead that we go back to the way we were living before. We should go back to the way we were governing ourselves before, leaving presidential system of government, it is too expensive and go back to parliamentary system of government, where you elect people and among them, they elect a prime minister, then there will be no chaos.
Look at the way people scramble now to become governor or president, it is because it is too expensive, it is because they enjoy the positions, that is why it has become a do-or-die affair. Leave that. And then, why do we have to pay people if they are the servants of the people? We pay legislators to go and make laws, they should be paid allowances and not salaries, but now, they are paying them salaries, they are paying them retirement benefits; it is wrong, we are squandering our riches for nothing, nothing is left for development, so we should change. And that is why I condemn this meeting. In 2005, we were appointed to go and discuss National Political Reform during the time of Obasanjo. We were there for four months; they wasted a lot of money, we wasted a lot of time, we wasted a lot of papers, we wasted a lot of everything. When it finished, then it went to the National Assembly, they did not even look at our report. It means, we wasted time, we wasted everything. But, it was later we learnt that the whole essence of that meeting was that, they wanted third term. So, this is what national conference will bring about. There is a hidden agenda; there is something that is hidden, that is why I don’t support it.
Were you a delegate to the National Political Conference in 2005?
Yes, I was a delegate and in my maiden speech, I said, I hope there is no hidden agenda, but later on, it turned out that there was a hidden agenda. Everybody was shouting. In fact, they were accusing us of shouting about third term when Obasanjo had not declared interest in running for a third term.
And the moment you come and sit down now, everybody will bring his own problems and say he wants solution and there will be no solution. We will just waste our money, time and everything, and after all, under the present system, under the present constitution of Nigeria, nobody can change anything except the National Assembly. Even to create a state now, it is impossible under the present dispensation, because you must have 2/3 of the whole states of Nigeria agreeing to any proposal. Tell me how can you get that? Twenty-four states must agree to the creation of one state.
So, are you saying we need the military to do this for us?
No! It is possible, we don’t have to call on the military to come back, but if we fail to agree between ourselves, you continue argument, then you are paving the way for the military to come back and do something. But personally, I am not saying I am in support of the military to come back, we can still do it, you know how? If the political parties come together, depending on the type of government we elect, you can bring about the government that has the majority, 2/3 and so on, they pass the vote, and then it would be done. So, we can change from the present presidential system to parliamentary system under the political system we are operating now.
Back on the issue of corruption, this has always been described as the bane of our development. What role are the religious leaders like you playing in wiping out corruption in Nigeria?
Very little. You know why I said very little? Do you know that, even the religious leaders, there are so many of them that are corrupt?
No, sir.
If you don’t know, but I do, because I am a religious leader and I am dealing with religious leaders. There are so many corrupt ones among them. I said everybody is corrupt. Out of a hundred, you can hardly get three per cent that are honest, straightforward and committed; the rest are corrupt, they are just looking for opportunity, once they get the opportunity, they will seize it, and that is corruption. Corruption is in every facet. Look at what is happening now, right from childhood, you find students bribing their teachers to give them pass mark, and these are the youths we call the leaders of tomorrow. That is why I said sometime when people asked me, I said, look the corruption has gone so deep, the country is so rotten, it is very difficult for even the military to come and correct the ills of our country. Only God can help us, because God can do anything, He can teleguide all the people to think the same way and do this. So, it is only God that can bring about this change. But, for human beings, it is what they will benefit that matters. Go and mention it that I said that even religious leaders, even traditional rulers and political leaders are all corrupt. There is no institution that is immune from this corruption. Then, how do we bring about correction when the majority of the people are corrupt. They think corruption, they wear corruption, they eat corruption and daily, they wake up in corruption. That is what is happening. Even you the press, if you don’t get brown envelope, then you don’t go and give out news. Recently, in China, a journalist was arrested and jailed, he admitted in court that he published false news, because he was given money. So, you see, it is corruption all round, then how can we have development? It is very difficult.
Don’t you think these anti-corruption agencies like EFCC and ICPC have helped in getting rid of corruption?
They have not and they cannot. I am still telling you that they can’t, because there are sacred cows, they are very aware of people who amassed illegally the wealth of this country, they were jailed and then they were pardoned. Are you not aware? Then, how can EFCC fight corruption? They are aware, EFCC arraigned so many people- governors, senators and other top government officials and they sent them to court, and that is all they can do. When they send them to court and they are given bail, after they are given bail, you never hear about it. In fact, some of those who have been charged are now walking proudly on the corridors of power, they are the people recognised. You see, in Nigeria today, if you are an armed robber, you are a crook, then you become well respected. The way you dress, the way you eat, the way you marry the most beautiful wives, you build a mansion in three months, nobody queries you on how you get your riches, how do you correct that? Which EFCC and ICPC? There is nothing they can do, nothing.
Some have also linked the high rate of corruption in the country to the security problems experienced in Nigeria. In your own opinion, do you see any link between the two?
Even in the management of that security problem, there is corruption. You know, the armed forces have the highest provision in the budget. They have a lot of money and then they have something to rest upon. Let me give you one example, for how long are we going to be living with road blocks? It is now becoming a permanent feature, something that is supposed to be for a temporary period like two weeks, and then it is off, but now it is permanent, that is due to corruption.
Secondly, you see, you have introduced crisis in three states, have we solved the problem now? It is about six months now that they have been appointed, now what do you hear, you hear from the security forces, we came across this Boko Haram, we killed 200, we killed 95, but if you go to the local people, they said, it is a lie, we saw the dead bodies, they were not more than 15, but they will tell you this. That is corruption, because they cannot tell us the real truth, if we know the real truth, the whole country will rise against them, don’t you know? And again, when they go back to the barracks, what would they have? They will lose all these benefits which they are enjoying now. So, they will want this thing to continue permanently, yes. It is supposed to be for six months highest. Now, we have reached six months, the thing has not abated at all, even few days ago, there was an attack; the capital of Yobe State was attacked. We are not talking of villages, the capital, and then, you will tell me you are fighting Boko Haram, you are fighting terrorism, there is no progress, there is no progress at all. And now, the next thing now, they will go and arrest innocent people, lock them up. That is what is happening and that is corruption. Are you not aware of the Apo killing in Abuja? What has happened? Nothing. They said they are Boko Haram.
So, are you saying that, government should withdraw the military from the crisis areas?
Oh yes! Look, for many years, people in Borno where this Boko Haram started have been asking Federal Government to withdraw the military and allow the people to take care of themselves, they refused. You see, you cannot fight this thing through the barrel of the gun. The local people know themselves, they know who are the Boko Haram and who are not. Gradually if you allow them, they will come to terms with each other and stop. But now, there are extra judicial killings. People will go and open fire, nobody will challenge them.
Look at the Baga case, nobody will challenge them, because they have the licence to kill without being asked. Everyday, they are creating more enemies, because everyday you wake up, you kill this, you kill that, and they have relatives, you think those relations will forgive them? No! The more you kill, the more that will come out. So, that is the situation and even the whole world is watching now. You cannot subjugate people through the barrel of the gun. George Bush said, with the United Nation’s permission or not, they were going to bring down the government of Sadam in Iraq. He went to Iraq in 2001, killed Sadam, brought down the government, installed another government, but do we have peace in Iraq now? Everyday they have bombs and bombs and bombs. Only yesterday, they said the Prime Minister went to America, because they paid for some jet fighters to be given to them. They want to buy fighters; that is not the solution.
How do we now get out of this security challenge?
Well, security affects everybody, so it is the business of everybody. So, everybody must wake up, we must clean ourselves. It is not just the police and the army and the civil authority that are security forces, everybody must be security concious. And the number one thing is to wipe out corruption. If you go within the police and even the armed forces, there are so many rotten eggs among them. I am not saying all of them, there are very good ones among them. So, unless we think more of God than money, we are going to have a lot of problems
Away from that sir, 2015 is fast approaching and there has been this agitation for power to return to the North, as an elder statesman of Northern extraction, do you think Northern Presidency or Southern Presidency is the problem of Nigeria?
It is not. I have said it earlier that a common man in Nigeria doesn’t care who is the President, as long as his own interest is not suppressed, as long as he gets justice when he goes to court, he doesn’t bother. Now, we have struggled in Kaduna State, who is going to be the governor, the common man doesn’t care, he doesn’t know the intricacies of the workings of government. If you have somebody who will work for the people, give them their fair share of everything; development, then there will be no problem of any kind. So, this idea of tying it to the North or the South is not the issue, the issue is, who is there? What has he done? That is the question to ask. If he has performed wonderfully well, then he deserves to be re-elected. If he hasn’t, he deserves to be pushed away and then a new hand be given a chance to come and do it, yes. But you see, even in the North here, are we united? Supposing we say, alright, the North should produce the next President, are we that united? How many people have been contesting from the North? I can count about four or five people who contested the last Presidential election who are northerners, yes. That is another bone of contention, to get leadership by hook or by crook and that is why it is going to be a problem. But let us hope.
But you can see that there is already problem in the Kaduna State chapter of APC. I heard somebody shouting that they have not selected the right people, and that is problem. With APC as a merger of many political parties, it is going to be headache to select who should be the candidate for this and that. So, they have to work hard to ensure that they reach consensus, otherwise, it would be very bad.
Another fear I have due to insecurity and the corruption we are into in Nigeria, a lot of arms have flooded the country and people are preparing for 2015. It is most unfortunate.
People who are very rich have bought a lot of arms and brought into the country. Where is the security? With all these arms, there are people who said it is going to be do-or-die affair. A lot of arms have been brought into the country illegally, it is only God that can save us, because they brought these arms to subdue people. It means they will be killing people who are opposed to them, and only those who follow them or their own party will survive.
But, let us hope there will be a change of heart and change of attitude. Look, those in power have tasted it and they know how they are enjoying. Those outside are also eyeing that power, that is why it becomes do-or-die affair. That is why I was advocating parliamentary system, where you come, we pay you allowance, then we pay you and you go.
Out of 360 days in a year, National Assembly members are supposed to act for only 181 days, yet they are paid salaries, they are paid allowances, they are paid oversight this, oversight that and all the money is finished, nothing is left for development. Then how will someone not fight to maintain that position? Look at what they amassed within the past few years they came into power, and you think they easily agree for that power to slip bye? No! It is not easy, so they will try all means to return to power. Also those outside will do all that is within their power to get people vote those ones out.
